"Another Winter, Us" × "Urban Legend Deconstruction Center": A Talk Between Creators and Publishers on Independent Development, Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Houses That Support Them
Note: the original Japanese article can be found at:
https://www.4gamer.net/games/633/G063319/20250919004/
Editorial Department: Junpoco Editorial Department: Dabi | 2025/10/11 01:00 (UTC)
The Tokyo Game Show 2025 was held from September 25 to 28, 2025 at Makuhari Messe in Chiba. This year, major publishing houses such as Kodansha Game Lab and Shueisha Games again demonstrated strong presence among various companies showcasing their games.
Kodansha Game Lab exhibited a total of 28 titles, including the globally successful “Different Winter, Us,” which has surpassed 1 million copies sold worldwide, and “Darekare,” which won three awards at the Sense of Wonder Night 2025. Shueisha Games focused on exclusive experiences such as their first-ever demo for “OPUS: Prism Peak” and pre-registration for “unVEIL the world -Anveil the World-,” presenting a wide range of titles from original indie works to major releases.
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.039 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers Thumbnail image for Gallery No.038 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.037 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers Thumbnail image for Gallery No.036 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
At Kodansha Game Lab’s booth, a limited-edition magazine titled “Game Lab Magazine Vol. 2” was distributed. Following the previous year’s launch that sold out all 10,000 copies on the same day, this year’s issue—spanning 64 pages—drew significant attention from attendees.
The front-page feature article included a roundtable discussion between the creators of both companies’ publishing titles: “Different Winter, Us” and “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.”
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.040 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers Thumbnail image for Gallery No.041 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
This article is an extended conversation stemming from that creator roundtable discussion. On a certain day in August, the 4Gamer reporting team gathered with Toku Noyori, the creator of “Different Winter, Us” and “Different Star, Us,” and Hafu Hafu Oden, the lead developer behind “Wakaidou Shinya’s Case Files” and “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center,” under the banner of Hakaba Bunko. Additionally, Hiroyuki Kataoka from Kodansha Game Lab and Maria Hayashi from Shueisha Games joined to discuss indie game development based in Kansai, personal vs small-team development, and the role of publishing publishers supporting them.
From left: Maria Hayashi (Shueisha Games), Hafu Hafu Oden (Hakaba Bunko), Toku Noyori, Hiroyuki Kataoka (Kodansha Game Lab) Thumbnail image for Gallery No.012 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Official Website for Toku Noyori
Official Website for Hakaba Bunko
The Encounter Around “Alone Planet” and the Connections of Kansai Indie
4Gamer:
Today, we’re very grateful to be invited here. We’ve already completed one interview earlier today—though it seemed quite lively! I’m thrilled to be at such a special place… but honestly, I don’t know much about this gathering. What exactly is this event?
Shueisha Games Maria Hayashi (hereafter, Hayashi):
That’s right (laughs). We really should’ve explained that first.
Kodansha Game Lab Hiroyuki Kataoka (hereafter, Kataoka):
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.011 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
At this year’s Tokyo Game Show 2025, Kodansha Game Lab decided to distribute our magazine “Game Lab Magazine” again, following last year’s release. As the front-page feature, we planned a roundtable discussion between the creators of “Different Winter, Us” and “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” We then consulted with Shueisha Games, who publish “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center,” about this idea.
Hayashi:
When I heard about it, I thought: “That’s actually interesting!” So while we didn’t just jump on the bandwagon, we were genuinely eager to co-create something together. In the end, this became a project involving both creators and cross-publishing publishers from different companies.
4Gamer:
So it’s like two publishing game publishers collaborating?
Toku Noyori (hereafter, Toku):
The original plan was that after our conversation with Hakaba Bunko, the second half would involve Shueisha Games and Kodansha Game Lab starting a friendly “fight,” which we’d cheer on.
Hafu Hafu Oden (hereafter, Oden):
Exactly! We’re the ones who stir things up!
Toku:
And in the article, let’s not mention our names at all.
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.001 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
(Everyone laughs)
Hayashi:
That sounds fun—but if such an article ever comes out, I’d probably get in trouble (laughs).
Kataoka:
I’d be summoned by my superior too (laughs).
4Gamer:
We media folks might even want to cover that angle (laughs).
As you can tell from the conversation above, Toku and Hakaba Bunko have a long-standing relationship. I’ve occasionally seen your playful arguments on social media. Could this connection be one of the reasons behind today’s talk? But how exactly did it start?
Toku:
It was around 2016—right after I graduated from university, when I first started making games. Being in Kansai, I got invited into a circle similar to “Mochikin’s” friends’ group. At the time, Hakaba Bunko had already begun game development.
Oden:
Right! Back then, everyone was creating games for mobile apps.
Wakaidou Shinya’s Case Files - The Wedge of Execution: A Detective Adventure Thumbnail image for Gallery No.025 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Toku:
We’d go to game events together in a car, or hold development retreats—just doing things side by side.
4Gamer:
Do you remember the first time you met?
Toku:
Mochikin posted on Twitter: “Anyone free for drinks tonight at Umeda?” I went. Oden was there too—“Nice to meet you,” we said. But back then, Oden had a sharp edge.
Oden:
Yeah! Very sharp.
Hayashi:
What kind of sharpness?
Toku:
It just so happened that around this time, I released “Alone Planet,” and the conversation turned to it. Then Oden said: “That ‘Alone Planet’—isn’t that the same as…?” He then mentioned a different game title.
Hayashi:
Now that’s not a good kind of sharpness (laughs).
(Everyone laughs)
Oden:
No, no! Not at all. I meant to say: “Hey, this game is inspired by that one!”—I just didn’t phrase it well.
Hayashi:
Ah, so it wasn’t the wording—it was the delivery.
Toku:
In reality, he said something like “That’s kind of similar,” in a softer tone. But I took it as: “Am I not original?” (laughs).
Oden:
Right! Looking back now, I realize that might have been rude. Back then, I didn’t even see myself as a game creator yet—so I barely understood what games were about. Meeting Toku and other Kansai developers face-to-face was huge for me—it opened my eyes to how games are made and how the market works. Real-life conversations like that can’t be found online.
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.003 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
The Local Spirit That Nurtured Kansai Indie Creators
4Gamer:
Looking at Kansai as a region, we see many indie studios and publishers—plus it’s the home of BitSummit. There’s a strong sense that game development is very active here. What was the atmosphere like back then?
Oden:
The community wasn’t large compared to today, but there was definitely something “in motion.” We had Unity developer meetups already, and through those events, we’d form friendships, go on retreats together, attend Tokyo events—building bonds over time. Being from or living in Kansai gave us a shared sense of purpose: “Let’s keep pushing forward.”
4Gamer:
Makes sense. Back then, the term “indie game” wasn’t as common yet—platforms were still mostly mobile and tablet-focused.
Kataoka:
Steam was starting to grow, but it hadn’t fully opened up yet—around the time Steam Greenlight was abolished (before 2017).
※ A system where developers submitted games for release approval based on user votes. Abolished in 2017 and replaced by “Steam Direct.”
Hayashi:
Actually, I knew about Toku even back then.
4Gamer:
Really? You did?
Hayashi:
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.005 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
I worked for a company that had a gaming media division. We handled game development and production while also writing articles and reports. We had a section supporting indie developers—through contacts with IGDA (International Game Developers Association), I was recommended to feature two creators: Moppin from “Downwell” and Toku.
That was before “Alone Planet” even came out. In the end, we managed to interview Moppin—but couldn’t reach Toku.
Toku:
So it was Moppin vs. me—me who didn’t get a call?
Hayashi:
Not at all! It just happened that Moppin lived in Tokyo (laughs). So even back then, my name had already reached Tokyo.
4Gamer:
Earlier, when I spoke with game journalist Masahiro Toko about the regional nature of indie development, he said it felt similar to hip-hop’s so-called “representative culture.” From your experience, it seems like there was a unique sense of local connection—like each region has its own identity.
Hayashi:
True. But even within Kansai, Osaka and Kobe are different—you know? Wasn’t there any rivalry?
Oden:
No. It wasn’t about conflict. Toku’s “Alone Planet” came out strong from the start—and then things escalated quickly. To us, it felt more like watching a genius sprint down an elite path from behind—someone unstoppable. After BitSummit, we started having clearer ambitions: “We want to make something like that,” “Let’s aim for this.” That’s when we thought: “He’s intense. He’s dangerous.”
4Gamer:
Intense and dangerous.
Oden:
Yeah. I really liked one of Toku’s games—“the deer game,” as it was called.
Toku:
Oh, thank you! That wasn’t under my main name though.
Oden:
Exactly. When you play it, you get a sense: “Ah, this is what kind of person he is.” I think that’s the most authentic expression of Toku himself.
Toku:
Indeed—there are overlaps with what we see in “Different Winter, Us” and “Different Star, Us.” The design intentionally tries to make players feel uncomfortable or even guilty—it’s all part of the concept.
4Gamer:
(Laughs)
Oden:
Toku’s games clearly show two core ideas: pretending to be a game while actually manipulating players—and incorporating real-world communication. These concepts are miles away from “pressing a button and feeling good.” It’s rare, really.
I remember one moment that stuck with me—after a retreat in Nagano. I was hit hard by something unexpected.
Toku:
Ah… were we talking about age?
Oden:
Yeah. “My dad is closer to your age,” he said. And it came at the very end of the retreat.
4Gamer:
You dropped that on us right at the finish (laughs).
Toku:
I’d actually been wondering since before we started—but back then, we didn’t know each other well yet. I thought: “I can’t bring up age.” It’s just too rude. But after spending so much time together and getting close, I decided to finally say it.
Oden:
He also said, “My first console was Nintendo 64”—that really hit me. The way he delivered it… I felt like my knees gave out (laughs).
4Gamer:
(Laughs). Do you still gather together now and work or talk things through?
Hayashi:
We do retreats occasionally—nothing continuous, but we meet once a year or so.
For instance, with Shueisha Games’ titles, we had a 2-night/3-day retreat involving Hakaba Bunko and Akrobatik Chirimenjako (developer of “Schrödinger’s Call”), where Toku and Daigo from OdenCat also joined.
Schrödinger’s Call. Akrobatik Chirimenjako is a Kyoto-based development team, with Shueisha Games as their publisher. Hakaba Bunko shares the same Kansai base and are “label mates.” Thumbnail image for Gallery No.027 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Oden:
Yeah. It was Akrobatik who suggested: “Let’s all make games together,” and it worked out perfectly—we gathered in an old-style house.
Toku:
It was fun! We were all really into the game “DETECTIVE X CASE” by Michio Doi and SCARP—so much so that Mochikin, who’d already played it, watched us with a satisfied author-like smile, like he’d made it himself.
Oden:
Exactly. Akrobatik started arguing seriously in the middle of the night!
Hayashi:
Hakaba Bunko stayed mostly in the kitchen cooking meals—Oden was like the cafeteria mom. I popped by for a bit and thought: “That’s interesting,” but as a publisher, I kept thinking: “But when will Hakaba Bunko actually make games?”
4Gamer:
(Laughs). It really feels fun just listening.
Hayashi:
I did show up—but it was clearly a creator-driven gathering. If we’d taken charge, the event would’ve been limited to only those involved in our own projects. Just like that “representative” culture we discussed earlier—these gatherings naturally form from connections among creators themselves. That’s what makes them special.
Toku:
Honestly, I think it’d be amazing if Kodansha Game Lab and Shueisha Games had a joint retreat together!
Kataoka:
That sounds great! Should we try?
4Gamer:
Wait… surprisingly light-hearted (laughs).
Kataoka:
Well, there’s already been something like this—Kodansha Game Lab recently held a collaborative “focus session” with GYAAR Studio. So working together with Shueisha Games would be pretty exciting too.
Right now in the middle of our joint focus session with the winners of the GYAAR Studio Contest and Kodansha Game Creators Lab team!
Everyone is fully focused on their work!
#GCLA #GameCreatorsLab #GYAARCon pic.twitter.com/KaBgVDCPPu— GYAAR Studio (@GYAAR_Studio) February 1, 2025
The Mysterious Encounter with the “Dot Artist” (Maybe?). Games as Expression and Pixel Art
4Gamer:
I’d like to hear about your approaches to game creation from both creators. Toku describes his work as “something that looks like a game,” while Oden said in a BitSummit interview: “I make games for people who aren’t gamers or those who prefer other cultures.” Both of you seem to be creators with non-gamer sensibilities.
Toku:
For me, I wasn’t raised on games. Instead, I loved reading books and watching movies. We had games at home—but I mostly just watched my brother play from behind. So I never really experienced the feeling of overcoming challenges in a game and finally completing it. That’s why I say “something that looks like a game”—it feels arrogant to claim something like this is truly a game when you’re not even familiar with how games work.
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.009 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
4Gamer:
How did you start making games from there?
Toku:
I studied literature at Osaka University of Arts because I loved stories and films. While learning expression, I began thinking: “Maybe game development suits me better.” When graduation approached, I decided to go all in—starting game creation from scratch.
4Gamer:
Even your early works have a distinct Toku feel, especially visually. How did that style develop?
Toku:
I started taking pixel art seriously with “Alone Planet,” when I finally had stable income to dedicate time to study and practice. Prior to that, silhouette-style visuals felt limiting—so I began practicing pixel art side by side with development. Using a pseudonym, I kept posting my work online until eventually merging it into “renal summer.”
Oden:
Around then, this mysterious “incredibly skilled unknown dot artist” suddenly appeared in the community. I followed them—I liked their style. Then one day, Toku contacted me: “That’s me.”
And so, I went through a sudden change of heart—turning my favorite pixel art into something I couldn’t stand anymore (laughs).
(Everyone laughs)
4Gamer:
Love and hate in the same breath (laughs). Reminds me of that “knees giving out” moment.
Toku:
I noticed right away when Oden started following me—it gave me a huge confidence boost. Even without revealing my identity, being recognized by someone like Oden—a real artist—meant everything to me. That’s what made me believe: “Yes, this style works.”
4Gamer:
When you only see Toku’s work, people are often surprised he can do pixel art too—he’s been quietly honing his craft all along.
Oden:
There were probably quite a few people grinding their teeth back then. To someone who does it professionally, you can tell when they’re doing something that seems impossible—yet still achieve the desired expression. It’s not just technique—it’s intentional artistry.
4Gamer:
Makes sense. Speaking of pixel art, I remember during “Different Star, Us”’s trailer release, Oden made a comment on social media: “The pixels are slanted.” That stuck with me.
Oden:
That wasn’t a criticism at all—it was just that the quality was so high, there was nothing else to point out (laughs). We searched hard for one flaw—only found one!
Toku:
(Laughs). But I was genuinely happy being noticed like that. The pixel art style is clearly something Oden pushed forward.
Oden:
He’s already passed me by.
Toku:
No way! Absolutely not!
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.010 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
The Purity of Solo Creation, the Strength of Collaborative Work—Personal vs Team Development
4Gamer:
Now that both of you are here, I’d love to hear your thoughts: Toku, what do you think about Hakaba Bunko’s small-team development? And Oden, how do you see Toku’s personal development?
Toku:
Hakaba Bunko brings together people with different strengths—each playing their role. We all know each other well, but the quality of work I’ve seen from them has a freshness and depth I never expected. It’s like when characters are born: “Where did this cute girl like Wakaidou Azami come from?”—a character that somehow fits perfectly into Oden’s world.
Urban Legend Deconstruction Center Thumbnail image for Gallery No.028 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Oden:
Exactly (laughs). For character design, it’s not just me—there are always discussions with the team. Also, Shueisha Games got involved early in planning—we’ve incorporated their feedback too.
Toku:
That sounds fun to me. When working solo, you keep repeating: “This is what I imagined,” until you reach your goal and finish. But with a team? You’re constantly surprised by things outside your imagination. You’re both creator and audience—you enjoy the process of seeing your game come together. That’s something I really envy.
4Gamer:
With solo work, how do you handle doubts or uncertainty about “Is this the right path?”
Toku:
Yeah—it feels like pushing forward as if there were no other choice (laughs).
Hayashi:
Even when showing your project to Kodansha Game Lab team members—do you ever show it to others during development?
Toku:
I might show my family, but I usually don’t share with fellow creators. If a small detail like a background pixel is good, I’ll proudly brag—but never show the full concept or ask for playtesting.
Kataoka:
Just like Shueisha Games and Hakaba Bunko’s relationship—we’re involved from the planning stage too. With “Different Star, Us,” we reviewed each completed level thoroughly—watching reactions to see what players were thinking.
Toku:
Then we always end up talking about Harano.
Oden:
Harano? What’s that?
Toku:
Just something like: “This land has so many plains.” I’m a plain supremacist, you know.
Hayashi:
“Plain supremacy”? That’s the first time I’ve ever heard of it (laughs).
Toku:
How do plains determine national strength? Why hasn’t Niigata become Japan’s center despite its vast plains?
Kataoka:
Well, there’s another team member named Hirata—he’s from Niigata. So we talk about how “this path leads to that” (laughs)—though it has nothing to do with games.
Toku:
It’s just random trivia—like a chaotic Takashi Kudo kind of rambling.
4Gamer:
That’s great! I love underground alleys and back streets—maybe someday we’ll get into something like that. But getting back on track: these kinds of conversations feel like how authors relate to their readers—seemingly pointless chatter, but actually helping each other understand different perspectives.
When Hayashi said in a BitSummit interview that the relationship between indie developers and publishers is similar to that of manga artists and editors—I felt there’s definitely something shared here. Kodansha Game Lab, which openly says “We support game development,” clearly embodies this spirit too.
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[Interview] “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center” Half Anniversary: Hakaba Bunko × Shueisha Games on Six Months of Progress and Indie Culture
![Interview] “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center” Half Anniversary: Hakaba Bunko × Shueisha Games on Six Months of Progress and Indie Culture](/games/649/G064901/20250818034/)
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“Urban Legend Deconstruction Center,” developed by the indie team Hakaba Bunko and published by Shueisha Games, has now reached its half-year anniversary since release. This article brings you an interview with Hafu Hafu Oden and Maria Hayashi from Shueisha Games on this year’s breakout hit—its past, present, and future, plus indie culture.
[2025/08/20 15:01]
- Keywords:
- PC: Urban Legend Deconstruction Center
- PC
- Adventure
- CERO B: 12+
- Players: 1
- Horror/Occult
- Shueisha Games
- Hakaba Bunko
- PS5: Urban Legend Deconstruction Center
- PS5
- Nintendo Switch: Urban Legend Deconstruction Center
- Nintendo Switch
- Interview
- Event
- Editor: Junpoco
- BitSummit 2025
- BitSummit
Kataoka:
Exactly. I myself am a former editor from publishing—Kodansha Game Lab was founded by editors of comics and novels. We’ve always focused on working closely with the “artist” behind the work.
4Gamer:
Publishers with roots in traditional media often have deep experience with expression and editorial culture, which probably makes it easier to gain creators’ trust. From a team developer’s perspective—what do you think about Toku as an individual creator?
Oden:
There’s definitely more mental burden involved when working alone—but the “purity” of his work is completely different from what teams produce. With larger groups, there will inevitably be parts where not everyone fully agrees. Whether it’s right or wrong doesn’t matter—sometimes you just move forward with unresolved doubts.
4Gamer:
“Here’s what I wanted to do,” and so on.
Oden:
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.007 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Exactly.
But still—there are many things only possible in a team. Someone else’s technical skill can bring to life expressions I couldn’t achieve alone, and the team reaches places my imagination never could. We’re like a “chimera,” mixed together. Compared to that, Toku’s work feels incredibly transparent.
Hayashi:
That said, someone who has worked on games with 100 or 200 people might think Hakaba Bunko’s four-person team is remarkably pure. The creators’ individuality shines through clearly—everyone outside recognizes it too. That’s just how I see it personally.
Kataoka:
When disagreements arise in a team, who makes the final call?
Oden:
We have this principle: “Let’s just decide for now.” We proceed with the assumption that we don’t know if it’s correct. For example, programming decisions usually go to our programmer Mochikin; for graphics, I’m often entrusted—but always depends on context.
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The indie game “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center,” which sold 300,000 copies in three months. The team set “Three Rules” during development. We introduce what environment this hit title emerged from—based on the lecture.
[2025/08/08 08:05]
- Keywords:
- PC: Urban Legend Deconstruction Center
- PC
- Adventure
- CERO B: 12+
- Players: 1
- Horror/Occult
- Shueisha Games
- Hakaba Bunko
- PS5: Urban Legend Deconstruction Center
- PS5
- Nintendo Switch: Urban Legend Deconstruction Center
- Nintendo Switch
- Event
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- CEDEC 2025
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Toku:
If Oden were to make a game alone—what kind would it be?
Oden:
Hmm… probably not an adventure game. Maybe something like a “casual game”—small, cozy, something you can keep touching throughout the day.
Toku:
Like one you’d play casually while working or doing chores online.
4Gamer:
Ah, those kinds are popping up lately. I’d love to see Oden’s pixel art games.
Oden:
But thinking about it now—I wonder if making a game alone would really maximize my personal ability. Instead of focusing on what I want to make, maybe the best is creating something we can do together—something that fits both with Shueisha Games and our team. That’s where I feel most fulfilled right now.
4Gamer:
Toku, have you ever thought about working in a team?
Toku:
Yes! If possible, I’d love to create amazing characters—I just can’t do it myself. It’s something I deeply admire. In storytelling too—something with strong twists and intricate mysteries. I like those kinds of stories but know I couldn’t make them alone. I want to work with someone who can bring that vision to life—and ride on their talent (laughs).
Urban Legend Deconstruction Center Thumbnail image for Gallery No.019 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
4Gamer:
So… could such a collaboration actually happen? If you had someone who could deliver amazing characters and write complex mysteries—then I’d say there’s already a team right in front of us.
Oden:
It’s not impossible, but…
Toku:
But if that happened, our current relationship might end (laughs).
Oden:
Exactly! We’d probably start arguing and stop talking. For me, it would be hard to know who handles what—since Toku does everything alone. I imagine he’d say: “Can I handle this?”
Toku:
I’m not used to team development—I worry about how we’d resolve conflicts if our desires clash.
Oden:
Also, knowing the high purity of his personal work… it makes me wonder if I even have a right to get involved. Maybe I should just be an “entry-level worker,” doing whatever’s assigned without any ideas (laughs).
I think that level of respect is what makes it so precious. That kind of two-player-only game concept—where the design is built around cooperation—is incredibly cool in my eyes. It’s something I really envy.
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.002 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Toku:
It’s not quite team development—but still… that two-player-only game concept? Kodansha Game Lab was the one who said: “That would be great.” That’s why it happened.
4Gamer:
Really?
Toku:
I always wanted to make a two-player-only game from the start. But such games have limited players—smaller audience, so even if they sell well, revenue is low. For someone making games alone just to live off them—it’s risky. But Kodansha said: “It’s interesting, let’s do it.” And since they’d cover any losses—I was able to take the leap (laughs).
Kataoka:
That’s exactly how we want creators to feel—no one should suffer financial loss. We design our support that way. It’s not a paradigm shift per se—but in publishing history, there have been times when genres previously unseen by markets suddenly exploded in popularity.
Game development is no different—we don’t reject new things because “the market is small.” Instead, we say: “We don’t know what’ll happen—maybe it’ll sell!” That’s why we welcome bold, unconventional games.
Oden:
That sense of security is what made me feel safe to take the risk.
4Gamer:
And that was even before “It Takes Two” came out, right?
Co-op-only games like “We Were Here” and “A Way Out” existed—but weren’t widespread yet.
Toku:
Exactly. Back then, there weren’t many reference games to learn from. The pandemic changed how people communicate—and the role of games evolved too. But still, so many people played it.
4Gamer:
This summer, the series surpassed 1 million copies sold—so Kodansha even hung a banner at their headquarters! It was displayed alongside Liverpool FC’s Premier League championship banner—an unforgettable impact.
August 25: Today at Kodansha. #TodayAtKodansha#HotWeather#DifferentWinterUs#LiverpoolFC#LFC#YNWA#inspiRED pic.twitter.com/h9x7BYBg8C
— Kodansha (@KODANSHA_JP) August 25, 2025
Kataoka:
Thank you. This is the largest-scale campaign Kodansha has done for a game we publish—featuring station advertisements, observation wheel ads at Tobu Zoo, rickshaws in Asakusa, and limited ads on swan boats at Lake Yamanaka.
Hayashi:
I was actually jealous. I’m a core fan of Liverpool FC. Just seeing Kodansha’s name appear as their global partner during matches is bad enough—but now having our game’s banner right next to theirs? It really stung, and I was so envious (laughs).
4Gamer:
That kind of jealousy (laughs).
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Two-Player Puzzle Adventure “Different Winter, Us” Surpasses 1 Million Copies Worldwide. Sale Now Live with 70% Off on Steam & Switch Versions
Kodansha announced today (August 1, 2025) that its two-player puzzle adventure game “Different Winter, Us” has surpassed a worldwide cumulative sales total of 1 million copies. To commemorate this milestone, a sale is now live—offering Steam and Nintendo Switch versions at 70% off, down from the regular price of 710 yen (tax included). The Steam sale runs until August 14; the Switch version until August 18.
[2025/08/01 12:00]
- Keywords:
- PC
- Nintendo Switch
- iPhone
- iPad
- Android
- PS5
- PS4
- PC: Different Winter, Us
- Adventure
- kodansha games
- Toku Noyori
- Players: 1–2
- Co-op Play
- Japan
- Nintendo Switch: Different Winter, Us
- iPhone/iPad: Different Winter, Us
- Android: Different Winter, Us
- PS5: Different Winter, Us
- PS4: Different Winter, Us
- PC: Different Star, Us
- News
- Sale Info
- Editor: Chihiro
Kataoka:
I didn’t know that… Sorry, I don’t really follow football at all (laughs).
Toku:
I played soccer—I felt kind of overwhelmed by the whole thing.
Oden:
Wait, seriously? That wasn’t my image at all.
Toku:
In elementary school, I played baseball—then switched to soccer.
Oden:
So you’re a culture person! Both team sports—surprising!
4Gamer:
And both super mainstream ones too!
Toku:
Yeah—but after that, I started hating team sports and shifted toward cultural activities. I still enjoy watching games though. Daily practice just didn’t make sense to me—I never fit in with teams.
Hayashi:
Ah—so that’s where the roots of solo development lie?
4Gamer:
Wow… everything connects (laughs). Who would’ve thought it’d lead back to Liverpool?
Now, Oden—what about you? I get the impression you like pro wrestling and combat sports.
Oden:
I practiced swimming and martial arts. My training was at a Shaolin-style dojo—more realistic “forbidden moves” in mixed combat style. It was quite unique. And yes—I can do that “Sanin Kyo (light) pressure point” from Bakis (laughs).
Hayashi:
Wow, I’ve never heard of that! That’s interesting. So Toku, who now works solo on games—used to be in team sports; Oden, who now leads a team—was into individual combat sports.
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.004 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Looking Ahead: Two Indie Creators’ Visions for the Future
4Gamer:
I’d love to dig deeper into soccer and pro wrestling stories—but we’ve run out of time. Let’s finish with your outlook on what lies ahead.
Toku:
Thumbnail image for Gallery No.006 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
With “Different Winter, Us” and “Different Star, Us,” we’ve explored two-player games—yet there are still infinite possibilities. I’d love to keep making games focused on communication: situations where interaction is restricted or overly exposed; messages distorted in transmission—all of these open up endless new potential. This could become a genre in its own right—I want to experiment with all kinds and be the first to publish such games.
4Gamer:
Are you thinking about moving beyond games into other forms of expression? You’ve always loved novels and films—wouldn’t it be great to write a novel based on your work?
Toku:
You’re right—that’s where it all started. But I can’t write novels myself—I just can’t produce writing that satisfies me. The more I write, the more my internal “novel” feels polluted—and I’d run away from it. That’s one reason I eventually found games as a medium.
With games, even if I can’t personally achieve satisfaction with words, I can design how others receive them—making the expression work. That’s what clicks for me in game creation.
4Gamer:
You have a message to convey—and how that story is felt and experienced becomes the player’s responsibility. That’s narrative expression, right?
Kataoka:
We’ve seen many players and others praise this aspect of your games.
Oden:
That’s true—there are people who play Toku’s game and then write novels based on it. Someone who says “I’m stepping away from writing” but ends up making a game that makes others write stories. That’s really powerful to me.
Hayashi:
You said you failed with novels—but through creating games, there might come a moment when everything clicks: “Maybe I can express myself in a novel after all.” And if so, being connected with Kodansha as your publisher would be a huge advantage.
4Gamer:
Exactly—“Urban Legend Deconstruction Center” is already thriving with many novelizations and comic adaptations. That’s the kind of strength publishing publishers bring—it feels natural for authors to eventually write their own novels through such paths.
Now, Oden—what about you? It’s been just over a month since BitSummit when you said: “My notebook is still blank.”
Urban Legend Deconstruction Center Thumbnail image for Gallery No.031 / Creator & Publisher Talk: “Different Winter, Us” × “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center.” Personal Development vs Team Development, and the Role of Publishing Publishers
Oden:
Yes. Still completely blank—but within the team, we’re deepening our shared “Hakaba Bunko” identity. We also want to expand that spirit beyond current boundaries.
Toku:
After making a game like this—do you feel burned out? I do after release and promotion: once it’s over, I just crash emotionally. How about you?
Oden:
Not at all! No burnout—I don’t know about the others—but for me, nothing is harder than before “Urban Legend Deconstruction Center”’s release (laughs). Honestly, I’m eager to start new work immediately.
Of course, I don’t yet know what’s next. But stepping into a new challenge means walking through uncharted territory again. Technically, I feel more capable now—but every time I face something new, the mindset remains completely fresh.
4Gamer:
Two interviews in a row—thank you both for your incredible energy and dedication. From your creative approaches to how Shueisha Games and Kodansha Game Lab support them, we’ve gained truly valuable insights. We look forward greatly to what Toku and Hakaba Bunko will do next—with their respective publishers. Thank you very much today.
—— Recorded on August 26, 2025